Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:02 Welcome to faces of fortitude behind the lens, a safe space for anyone who's been touched by suicide to share their story in whatever form feels safe for them. Since losing my brother, Jimmy to suicide over a decade ago, I've realized that the more we can normalize and use care in having difficult, sad, and intense conversations, the more welcome people are going to feel with connecting with each other at their scariest moments. It is our hope that when you're faced with your own mortality, maybe at a moment when the pain doesn't feel survivable, you will remember that there was a space where you heard other people sharing similar stories of loss and trauma and resilience. And we hope that that space of survivors reminds you in that moment that you're not alone. And you decide to stay and fight just one more day. Now, please help me in welcoming the brave guests to this podcast and treat their vulnerability, not just with care, but also with great celebration. Thanks again for being here. Let's get ready to go behind the lens.
Speaker 1 00:01:26 All right. Welcome back everybody to faces of fortitude behind the lens. I am so happy to welcome my guest this month. Penny Sawm, who is a face in the project, penny. Uh, we did your pictures back in 2018. And so it's been a, it's been a minute. Um, penny is a survivor and author, a TEDx and public speaker and the founder and director of brave. And unbroke the brave and unbroken project, uh, which is a nonprofit, uh, that she runs. And, um, I think that is everything in my notes, but I know there is so much more about you penny, and I'm excited for you to share things. Welcome.
Speaker 2 00:02:07 Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited. Um, as you mentioned, I'm a survivor, but I'm gonna throw a word out there that most people really cringe about. I'm actually a father-daughter incest survivor. And to me, that's really key. We're really trying to break the stigma around the word incest and survivors of incest. It is a real thing and, um, exactly what my brother and I both, um, experienced from a very young age, um, into late teens. And so that's kind of where my story begins. Um, he was a military officer, my biological father, and my abuse started. And the incest started when I was in an infant and in diapers and continued all over the world. Um, all the different places that we were stationed. Um, and as I got older, the incidences of rape and incest, um, grew more and more so multiple times a day.
Speaker 2 00:03:03 Um, and my family was comprised of my mother, my brother, um, my biological father, my and my abuser and myself, um, along with different friends and family members, um, depending on where we were. And, um, there was one particular instance. Um, and we talked about this during the photo session, um, around age 16, where I started to panic, um, when a schoolmate was pregnant, that my father was going to impregnate me and that I would have to carry that child. And, um, so I took a handful of pills of my mom's, um, just wanting to end it so that I didn't have to deal with being put through what he was putting through me, putting me through daily and the risk of being pregnant and having to carry that child. And then I panicked, um, because I knew how my biological father treated my brother.
Speaker 2 00:04:02 And even though I didn't know about my biological father and molesting my brother and raping him, I did know he treated him pretty badly and I was just so scared that my brother would have to deal with him alone without me, and it would be even worse. And so I quickly ran to a restroom about shortly after and, um, started to choke myself so that I could vomit, um, was able to get all the pills or, you know, most of it up, I was, I was sick for a couple days after that. Um, but a couple days later, my mother confronted me and called me out of class and confronted me about some notes I had made in my, um, youth Bible study notebook about wanting to commit suicide and wanting to not be on this planet anymore. Um, but the one thing I did not do is I did not write the words of what my father was doing to me.
Speaker 2 00:04:54 And I had tried multiple times to tell people in different ways I was, I never had the language. We didn't talk about sex in my family. We didn't talk about your body parts in my family. Um, everything had, um, different terminology. And so I never had the language or the words to be able to speak my truth to anyone as a child. And when I said to like a youth group leader, that my father had a different kind of love for me, um, they're like, oh, all fathers have a different kind of love for their first born, especially their daughters. And so this just kind of continued to become this like overarching, like heaviness. And so my mother CA came to school, pulled me out of class, stood with me in the hallway and just, I don't know that be berated was the right word, but grilled me about how could I ever even think about committing suicide?
Speaker 2 00:05:50 I was such a lucky kid. I had such an amazing life. I was able to live in foreign countries. I did all these wonderful things. I was involved in girl Scouts and sports and you name it. And, um, I just stood there, stunned in tears and unable to put words to what was going on and to tell her the truth. And, um, and that moment I really felt like I would take this to my grave and never be able to speak to anyone about what was going on, what I'd been through, about taking the pills, which no one knew about. Um, just that I, you know, I had vomited everything up and I just didn't feel good for a few days. Um, it was really challenging to make it through each and every day. Um, we oftentimes hear about masking in so many different ways. Um, and I felt like every single day when I walked out the door to go to whatever it was, school or an event, or hang out with friends, I would put that mask on and just like be the best actress that I could be the best actor, you know, not only was he abusing me
Speaker 2 00:07:09 And molesting me and raping me and everything else that he was doing, but he was also a stalker. So anytime I went somewhere, he was somewhere nearby and I could either sense him or see him, school events, et cetera. So it was just this like overarching heaviness that took a really long time to go away. So fast forward to I'm about to turn 18. And my brother was acting out. Didn't know why at the time he was threatened to go live with my father, cuz my mother and father were separated at the time for other reasons. And my brother just completely had a meltdown, told everything that had been happening to him since he was five years old. At this time he was close to 16 or I guess 14. And um, I got a phone call at my job and my mother said, you need to come home right away. I drove up to the driveway and in the window I could see her sitting at the table with my brother. Our biological father was in New York at the time. Um, his mother had been sick and my brother was brave enough in that moment. And so scared that he would have to live with our abuser, that he spoke his truth and because of his bravery, because he was able to speak his truth is the absolute, only reason
Speaker 2 00:08:35 That I could speak mine. And it took him two. It took me two days after that to be able to speak my truth. And in my head I felt like I was protecting him and protecting my mother and knowing that to protect my brother, I needed to speak up so that he wasn't criticized or treated poorly or anyone telling him he was lying about this horrible thing because he was younger and he was a boy and no one wanted to believe his truth and everything changed. Um, our mother stood tall. She did what she had to do. She called the police. Um, and our father was prosecuted and served 17 and a half years in prison. And I'll tell you what changed in the moment when we stood in that courtroom and someone believed us what, or even my mother, even when she said, I believe you and I am going to do everything in my power to take care of this. There was a shift, there was a shift that he no longer had control. He no longer had the power and the shift within me to tell my truth and what that meant on the heels of my younger brother, just being so brave was just this shift that I needed to know that I was gonna survive this life.
Speaker 2 00:10:07 So in that courtroom, that day, being able to stand in front of him with his eyes glaring at us and being able to say like I literally said, your honor, have no mercy on him because he had no mercy on us. And he got at that time, the highest, you know, most exceptional sentence that someone in this situation had ever gotten 17 and a half years in prison for what he had done to us. And there was a power in that the judge looked at us and said, we believe you, thank you for speaking up and for changing the cycle in your family. You know, as I think about how I've changed over the years, you know, at the beginning I was embarrassed. I didn't want anyone to know. I didn't tell anybody. He just went away. But then as time went on and I started to just say something to someone like, yeah, my father abused me and you know, the whole cliche of the hashtag me too. But the reality is there are so many people who said me too, and I never have spoken this truth to anyone. And that's when I knew I had to do something more. I had to write a blog. I had to tell people my story, maybe not the, the, the deep, dirty details, um, to protect people's, you know, understanding of
Speaker 2 00:11:37 The secrets of this detail of the details of what had happened to us. But I needed to, to create a platform for other folks to be able to tell their truth. My being able to say, I'm an incest survivor, gave other people permission to be able to say, I am too. How do you speak out? How did you talk about it again? Now I would not. I really do think I would've taken it to my grave, had my brother not spoken up, but I really think that since then in really seeing what the truth can do has changed my whole outlook. And hence why I created the Braven and broken project, wanting to create a platform for the average everyday person to have a space, to tell their story or not, but have a first initial place where they could like at least get it off their mind and their heart and their chest. And we talk lot about being loud, you know, loving yourself, owning your story, unleashing your voice and daring to be loud and living your life in a thriving way. And it's just been phenomenal to come together in community for people who have experienced these things together. And just like what you're doing with faces of fortitude.
Speaker 2 00:12:59 When people realize, when we all realize that we are not alone, we're not the only one this has happened to, we are not having a, this is not a single individual experience. It is amazing the community and the healing and the thriving that can happen. And that's so powerful in my experience. And so what I do wish I would've known like when I took the pills, when I was desperate for someone to hear me and I didn't have the language, I wish I would've known that if I just could have said, if I just had my words and said, this is what my father is doing to me, to someone, to anyone sooner, I could have stopped the, you know, the damage effects to my brother. I could have stopped the damaging effects to myself and the damaging effects to my mother. Because people like him, that groom that are manipulative, whether it be a man or a woman or a binary, anyone, any human who does these things, they are calculated. They are manipulative, they are violent and they can control and manipulate three people in the same home to where those three people don't even know what's happening to each other.
Speaker 2 00:14:21 And so what I beg of folks to do and ask of all of you who are listening, is to find a way to get whatever is hurting you, whatever trauma or turmoil that you're going through. And I talk about it in my Ted talk, write it down on a piece of paper and burn it, put it on your phone in a voice note and delete it and then find one person. It could be a total stranger. It could be me. It could be you, it could be a, a good friend. It could be someone you haven't seen in 22 years. I have a great, amazing group of junior high friends that, you know, we've hung out years ago and we still talk today, way more connected to them than anyone in high school. It could be someone like that, but know that there are people out that, that care and that they wanna hear your truth and they wanna support you. And that I wish I had known. And I hope that all of you, the same thing can take just that one little thing away. Even if emailing me connecting on social media or faces of fortitude,
Speaker 2 00:15:41 That we're a community to, to be here, to support each other, to hold each other up and to dare, to be loud because we wanna stop the cycles that have just been perpetuated, um, generation after generation and years after years, whether it's trauma for bipo folks, LGBTQ AI, plus, um, incest survivors, sexual trauma, sexual assault, we're here, we're here together to hold each other up and to support that.
Speaker 2 00:16:14 And so in that vein, um, some things that we're doing at the Braven UN broken project is soul fire weekend, bringing folks together, women specifically who have sexual trauma and creating a space for healing, connecting energies of the earth and community that we can realize that we are, we are together. We are one. And, and it was an amazing experience. We're also creating an environment where youth who are graduating or maybe getting their G E D, um, and they need a launchpad. They need supports and help they haven't had from their parents or their guardians. And they don't know what to do to make it out into the world. And so these are the things that we are hoping to grow and to continue to support people, um, especially by youth and LGBTQ, I plus youth, and know that none of us can do it alone. You know, they say when a baby is born, that it takes a village. And I believe that to be true all the way to the day that we go back to the earth,
Speaker 1 00:17:38 You know, I have always believed that too. I really, I think this is a good point for a little bit of a breather. I, I didn't tell you in the beginning, but I've been building in some, some breathers to kind of help pace trauma conversations for people listening. Mm-hmm <affirmative> because most of us can really only handle about 10, 15 minutes of conversation that might trigger us to remember things in our own lives. And so taking a minute to like, shake it out, take a breath, drink some water, stand up. If you need to. I know it's a lot for some people. And for most of us in general, I, I was telling somebody the other day that, um, I don't really believe people that tell me they don't have any trauma or any mental illness in their life, because we're all just at different levels at this point.
Speaker 1 00:18:21 Agreed. <laugh> yes. Um, and so it's good for us to remember that, um, it, it really is important for us to pace ourselves in listening and in sharing and in sharing space with people, because this can bring up a lot and there's no time limit on this. And, um, I would love to, um, first of all, daring, to be loud, I just, there's something really, um, important about that statement that you made. And I think any of us that fall under the stigmatized umbrella of trauma, um, like you ex expressed and explained, um, have such a hard time being loud because it, the natural, uh, the natural response of people talking about any of these things is to whisper.
Speaker 2 00:19:10 Yes,
Speaker 1 00:19:11 Incest Chi. If you've lost a child, if you've lost somebody traumatically, if there's suicide involve mental illness, drugs, um, everybody wants to whisper, uh, I, I get people all of the time when I used to work at creative live and I started faces up fortitude. I'll never forget a student came up to me and said, I follow you on, on Instagram. And I, I, I know the thing that you do <laugh> she was like, you know, the thing, the one it's about the hard stuff. And I was like, whoa, we are, why are you whispering what is happening? Yeah. And she was like, well, you know, it's like, it's just so hard to talk about. And I asked her, I said, I'm sorry, is this hard for you? Like, have you experienced suicide? And she said, no, I, and she was still whispering. And I was trying so hard to explain to her what you do when you behave that way to someone who has experienced is, is you're telling me that you're, that it's not worthy of your full voice and to feel shame and to need to whisper it. And so it's really important. So I think your statement of daring to be loud is so important because, you know, when we talk about incest between a father or daughter, I, you don't hear it said with full voices ever.
Speaker 2 00:20:26 I absolutely agree with you. And I think, you know, people look at me like, oh, love yourself, cliche, this, that. But I think that there's something about going deep inside and realizing that our truth, our story, our journey, it really matters. And when we can be loud, there's someone somewhere that is gonna connect with it. And it could be just what they need to take one toe step farther, one little inch ahead. And instead of five steps backwards, or to the bottle of pills like me or to the gun that's waiting or whatever it may be. But I truly believe that I don't believe that things happen for a reason. I don't believe I'm not that I'm not into that stuff. But I do believe that it's my responsibility for someone who's been through this to speak loudly and boldly so that we can change the systems and change the patterns and help those who are struggling through the same things.
Speaker 1 00:21:33 Absolutely. And changing the cycle of, of abuse and the generational curses that are happening. Like it's, it's our jobs as survivors and, and granted, not everyone has the capacity through their healing to do that. I abso, especially if you've got multiple things that are, are, are you're marginalized from like, there's a lot, I get that and healing and therapy and all of that processing is a privilege. And it's also very important to know that if we don't deal with it, it's going to come back. It's going to come up in our lives later and infiltrate our relationships, our love, life, everything. And so I think this, this first of all, the soul fire weekend sounds amazing. Um, but I, I think that you creating this is such a form of post traumatic growth that I wish people would Google that and understand what it is because it's such a powerful thing within us. And I think I remember telling you about it in your session. Um, it's such a powerful tool
Speaker 2 00:22:41 You totally did. And it was the first time I've heard it and I've done so much research and so much sharing since really.
Speaker 1 00:22:46 I love that. Like
Speaker 2 00:22:46 This it's phenomenal and it's so, so true. And I think that when we can find one little way that we can support and do something, it might not be a nonprofit. It might not be a book. It might not be this. It might not be it's something, then it is phenomenally powerful to ourselves. Our healing, our spirits are energy. Um, just magnificent.
Speaker 1 00:23:11 It's so empowering. I'm so glad that you took that and ran with it because I am, I might be a little bit of a conspiracy theorist here, but, but hear me out, I do feel like it's a phenomenon. That's so powerful. It is fucking scientific. Okay. Like this is, there are doctors that have like proven this, this is a psychological thing. And yet it is really kept from us. We are people don't talk about it as much as they should post traumatic growth. Everyone listening to this, Google it. If you've had any sort of trauma, Google, what it is, because it is a way that you can empower and help yourself and use your trauma as fuel to better yourself and help other people. And it's a, it's the antithesis of medicine in so many ways.
Speaker 2 00:24:03 Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:24:04 And I think that people don't want, because it empowers us, it makes us not need things and people and other vices. And it's, um, it's, it's, it's interesting how I, how little I hear about it still, you know?
Speaker 2 00:24:20 Yeah. It's definitely not used, I think it needs to be used more and talked about more. I absolutely agree with you. And I think I agree with you. I think it's not used because of that, like systemic other ring that continues. Yeah. Like we, we wanna put survivors in a bucket or victims here, or, you know, people of this race here or that, or whatever it may be. Um, and I think that post-traumatic growth is a way to break those othering buckets away.
Speaker 1 00:24:52 Yes.
Speaker 2 00:24:52 And I think that our systems and medical, you know, drugs, whatever it may be is another way to other people. Right.
Speaker 1 00:25:02 Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah, exactly. And I think you, you really hit the nail in the head when you were talking about the shift that happened when your mother believed you. And when people in that courtroom believed you, there's a level of valid, there's a level of isolation when you are othered, when you are isolated with a trauma that's stigmatized, um, there's a level of isolation that, and, and sadness that you feel that you feel like no one's ever really gonna understand the level of trauma and pain that you're in and post traumatic growth. There's a level of validation there where somebody's like, oh, this not only helped me, but it could help other people. And you just did a thing here. Um, your validation that you got from your mother gave you a set, something shifted in you. And when we get that shift and we're like, Hey, not only am I not alone, but my experience was as such, that is, I can articulate it in a way that can possibly help someone. What, that's a power that is, in my opinion, it's a superpower because there can be people that study suicide or study incense and the trauma that it causes for the rest of their goddamn lives, whatever, but it's not going to ever replicate the data that comes from experience and lived experiences.
Speaker 2 00:26:27 Absolutely agree with you
Speaker 1 00:26:28 And, and healing. And I know that you can speak on that because you've written a book and because you've, and, and please plug your book and tell people about it and where they can find it before I forget.
Speaker 2 00:26:38 Yeah, absolutely. So, um, Braven and broken is the name of the memoir. And, and, um, although you can find it on the, a website, you can also find it on
Speaker 1 00:26:49 Impact
Speaker 2 00:26:49 Com website, which I would much rather you purchase from than the, a website.
Speaker 1 00:26:54 <laugh> I AB I tell everyone if you, and if you can't find it on the book on, on Penny's website, go, I'm sure there is a small mom and pop bookshop online that sells it as well. Yes. Because do not give the a website, thank you for not even saying their name because I absolutely am one of those people that would prefer to not give them any business.
Speaker 2 00:27:14 Yeah. I think bookshop.org, which, um, goes out to Indy or booksellers sells it. Um, and I, and I agree, I, I just think there's so many ways for post-traumatic growth and I just encourage everyone. It can look so many different ways. It could be a creative art project. Um, and I think that if we treated medical things with health and nutrition and we treated mental health and incest and sexual assault and traumatic things with post traumatic growth, we would such see such a shift in a transition. And I think that, um, do the research and, and learn more.
Speaker 1 00:27:53 Yeah. I, I totally agree. Um, so what is next for you? I know you said you just had the soul fire weekend, which is amazing, and that sounded incredible. Where, where are you doing those? How can people find out about it and what's next for you?
Speaker 2 00:28:08 Yeah. So, um, we are doing another one in October and we're getting ready to lock down the dates it's in Washington state. So if anyone's interested, they can go on my website and there's an interest tab. Um, my goal is to do a couple more potentially in a couple other states, um, next year, and, um, to continue to grow that opportunity and then an, a follow up Ted talk just came out of the blue. So we'll, we'll do that as well. But the big thing for me is, um, making a space for youth and survivors to be able to come together and heal and thrive in community, because I believe that it's easy to hate and to continue to be revictimized and to hurt when you're in a, in a space alone and isolated. And I think though, when we can come together and we can build something in community and we can hold each other up in community, whether that be a virtual community or an in person, community, that we are able to shift and transition and break cycles of trauma and really hold each other up for success in post-traumatic growth. And so that is my vision. And, um, I've had this like virtual space Penn's house in my head and the, these youths keep showing up that needs a launchpad. So maybe it's something bigger. Maybe the universe is talking to us in a different way, but stay tuned because the next couple years we're hoping for something big.
Speaker 1 00:30:01 Why did I just have a visual of Penny's house? Like being a place?
Speaker 2 00:30:06 That's what I'm hoping for. Yeah. I'm hoping for animals and a place that we can heal and be in community together. And I, I just really think there's such a need in the Pacific Northwest specifically. I think there's other places in our country as well, but we have a lack of that in our communities, in the Pacific Northwest. And I think that we need to figure out how to make it happen.
Speaker 1 00:30:32 Good for you, penny. I'm really excited. I'm excited to see where you've come. You know, it's been a while since we've chatted and, um, you know, looking back at 2018 penny, and now, um, how, how do you feel, how do you feel things have grown for you? Like how do you have anything to say, um, in regards to the process as far, you know, because you say that you, you threw those pills up that day, um, because you didn't want your brother to go through what you were going through and you didn't wanna leave him alone with, with your dad. Um, there has to be someone else out there that is experiencing this, and you've, you've even grown and done so much since 2018, since your pictures. Um, I would love a, any final note that you have for anybody that might be going through something similar that might have siblings maybe going through something and they don't wanna leave their siblings alone, but they really don't know how to handle things. Any, any advice or parting thoughts with people that might be resonating with this big time and just, um, have some shame and things that they're not quite sure how to go forward.
Speaker 2 00:31:40 Yeah, I would, you know, gosh, 2018 was, seems like so long ago. Um, I even think I
Speaker 1 00:31:47 Know, was it a different time cuz it feels like a whole different world.
Speaker 2 00:31:51 I mean, I think it's like dog years during COVID or something, but <laugh> um, I think when we did faces with you, I think that might have been right around the time that I faced him face to face. And for the first time faced my abuser in 25 years and sat around a table at a lawyer's office and was able to say what I needed to say
Speaker 1 00:32:14 Yes. Cause you know why, you know what he said? I remember now, cuz you said, he looked at you and said, do not write a book about this.
Speaker 2 00:32:21 Yes.
Speaker 1 00:32:22 And you were like, ha ha. <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:32:25 Like, guess what? It's coming out.
Speaker 1 00:32:28 And I remember cheering. I remember when you told me that I was like, fuck yes, penny.
Speaker 2 00:32:33 Yes <laugh> yes. So I would say to anyone who is in the middle of this number one, you're not alone. You may feel alone, but you're not alone. Number two, there are a lot of resources out there. You can go to my website, brave and unbroken. There is a text line, there is a phone number line and there are people waiting to help you. And I would say number three, that if you have siblings and other people or you're concerned about a neighbor and a child, a child in any situation, if you're in a grocery store and you're concerned about a child, that's with somebody, there is you do not have to have proof of anything to do a quick call to nine one one and say, you need a, he a wellness check on a child and where you're at. And I would say that we need to do it more because through COVID we know that less reports of child abuse and incest were done than ever, and that kids suffered more than they have suffered in a really long time. And we need to make sure that we are being vocal for them, that we're being advocates for them. And if that's you and you're listening to this, you can go to my website, you can reach out, we will get you connected to resources and get you the help you need. You are not alone. And there's no reason for you to continue to suffer.
Speaker 1 00:33:55 Wow. Those are, see, those are stats. Not everybody knows that. I did not know that I did not know that abuse calls and incest calls went down during COVID. Um, and I didn't know that you could call 9 1 1 and ask a wellness check for somebody no matter where you are. If you see a child, indeed. I had no idea. You could do that.
Speaker 2 00:34:13 Yeah. You, and you imagine like the people who are making calls on kids who are being abused are teachers, our coaches, our church, people and kids weren't there. Kids were at home with their abusers. Um, potentially if it was a family member. Yeah. And, um, and so we saw more kids suffering, but less calls. And so when things started to open up, then we had kids struggling. Um, and then cases started, you know, coming out or we had some pretty traumatic things that happened during COVID, where there was physical injury and then someone was called in. But um, kids have been suffering now for a few years and, and COVID was really hard on them. More ways than one.
Speaker 1 00:34:58 Wow. This has all been really helpful. I'm I'm so grateful. Thank you again for being here, um, for sharing your story. Um, I love how, how put together and organized you are. And it helps, I like interviewing fellow speakers because we just, we we're so good at having our notes. <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:35:15 Yeah. I had to put 'em all down and make miss something. But Mary, Angela, thank you so much. I just love this.
Speaker 1 00:35:21 This was so great. I'm excited. I think, I think a collab with our two, uh, communities is definitely in our future. We should think about that because I think, um, there's a lot, uh, of crossover there around the suicide, um, ideation and all of that, that, and I'd love to work together and do an event or something together. That would be fun.
Speaker 2 00:35:41 I would love it. And you know, my next, I don't know if the next soul fire will be, but next year I wanna have a BI focused, um, soul fire and I would love to have an LGBTQ AI focused soul fire. And so I'd love for us to think about that. Maybe we can talk later in the year.
Speaker 1 00:36:00 Yeah. That would be, that would be perfect. I love that. Thank you so much for being here again. And um, I will make sure all of your links and everything is in the description, um, of this episode and uh, until then I hope you and your stay well and healthy and um, yeah, I'm, I'm excited to see you again and give you a big hug,
Speaker 2 00:36:20 Ditto and I'm sending you love, love.
Speaker 1 00:36:30 Thank you so much for listening and holding space for the stories and heart spaces shared. In this episode, I encourage you to visit the social media pages and websites of our guests, as well as support their projects and endeavors that have S sprouted from their pain. If you would like to apply to be a face in this project or are struggling and need help, please visit our website at faces, fortitude dot a R T for information on how to apply and visit the educate page on my website for a thorough list of support options. And until next time, please remember this world is such a difficult place to live in right now for so many people. We never know what someone is going through. I hope you'll find a way to be softer with each other and yourself and harder on the systems that are trying to silence hurt and erase us. Take care out there and stay safe.
