Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:02 Welcome to Faces of Fortitude Behind the Lens. A safe space for anyone who's been touched by suicide to share their story in whatever form feels safe for them. Since losing my brother Jimmy to Suicide over a decade ago, I've realized that the more we can normalize and use care in having difficult, sad, and intense conversations, the more welcome people are going to feel with connecting with each other at their scariest moments. It is our hope that when you're faced with your own mortality, maybe at a moment when the pain doesn't feel survivable, you will remember that there was a space where you heard other people sharing similar stories of loss and trauma and resilience. And we hope that that space of survivors reminds you in that moment that you're not alone and you decide to stay and fight Just one more day. Now, please help me in welcoming the brave guests to this podcast and treat their vulnerability not just with care, but also with great celebration. Thanks again for being here. Let's get ready to go behind the lens.
Speaker 0 00:01:21 Okay. Welcome back to Behind the Lens. I am so excited to be joined by a mother-daughter duo today. Um, both suicide survivors in their own life, um, and in turn have worked on it together and healed together. Tracy and Maggie, welcome to Behind the Lens. I'm so happy to have you.
Speaker 3 00:01:44 Thanks for having us.
Speaker 0 00:01:48 Maggie's like shrinking <laugh>. Okay. Nobody can see you, so that's good. You can just talk. Um, I first off, want to share the sweet story of how we met over the summer. Um, you know, COVID was, had gotten me down as far as the project goes, and things were really kind of on hold for photos specifically and going slow for the podcast just because people's schedules and covid and life, you know, and we were sitting at a, was it a food event? It was some food roller skating event here. Yeah. And we had waited in line forever for food and we were sitting at a table and then I just heard my, I heard somebody mention Faces of Fortitude in me, and I just kind of turned around and I was like, what did you, did you recognize me immediately or was it the project? Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:02:37 No, I recognized you cause I've been following you for years and I was like talking to my mom. I was like, mom, should I say something? I don't know what to do. <laugh>. Yeah. And so she pushed me to say something. So I turned around.
Speaker 0 00:02:52 Well, it was funny cuz when they did that, I remember my whole heart. It was, you know, like the, the Grinch's heart Grow grew 12 sizes that day. Like, that's really how it felt. Um, I felt like I had kind of been a little like, grumpy around the pro project the last, like, weeks before. And sometimes it's really easy, especially when we're s in solitude like that for so long to f forget, um, you know, that other people are impacted by things that we do. And, um, I had been a little sad, so you definitely made my whole week with that because I was, had just been saying a sentence to my partner, uh, uh, something to the effect of like, I just don't think people, you know, or this is a longevity project right now. You know, I was just kind of getting down on myself.
Speaker 0 00:03:38 So it was very sweet. And then, um, you proceeded to be brave enough to tell me how you were connected to suicide and that you, um, both connected and I just, a lot of people, um, are scared to talk about hard things like that to strangers, let alone to anyone they know. So I was very impressed with both of you and I was excited. And then of course, the, the Olympics of trying to meet was what we had months after that. So this is, this is our first, we made it happen. And so I'm excited to have people show your story. Your story is one that, I don't know a lot of the details, but the details that I do know, I am shocked, first of all at the amount of loss and the fact that especially Tracy, with the amount of loss that you've had, because you've lived longer of course, and hopefully Maggie doesn't have any more loss, but with the amount of loss that Tracy's had, like, you're still a good mom, you're still here, you have a life, you're a partner, you have a home, you have a job. Like, I think a lot of people don't give themselves that part. Like you've survived it, but you're actually like thriving.
Speaker 4 00:04:51 Well, it's a choice. Yeah. It, it's a choice to thrive. It's a choice to move forward. Um, I I honestly think having Maggie saved my life because I was dark for a couple of years. Um, I had her three years after I lost my mom. And, uh, I was angry and I was hurting. And, um, she changed everything.
Speaker 0 00:05:20 Hmm. Okay. So let's start with your story, Tracy, because like I said, you're my generation. We've talked about this off camera and I do feel like, um, you had like boom, boom and a third technically lost in a row. Um, and so are you from here? Let's set the stage.
Speaker 4 00:05:39 Uh, I was actually born in Louisiana and uh, my parents divorced and they moved as far away from one another as they could. My father moved to Florida and my mother moved us to Washington. She remarried. Sh we lived in Ohio for about six months when I was about four. And then from five on we lived in, we've lived in Washington.
Speaker 0 00:06:05 Wow. That is as far as possible. They did that on purpose, didn't they?
Speaker 4 00:06:09 <laugh> Yes they did. Yeah. They, they did not care for one another. I never heard a kind word, uh, come outta my father's mouth where my mother was concerned. So my mom was really, she had remained
Speaker 0 00:06:22 Your first, uh, space around loss or even the, the weeks before. You said, um, your stepdad is the first loss, correct?
Speaker 4 00:06:33 Right. I'm not quite sure on the timeline. It was either when I was six or seven. So 76, 77, um, he went to the dentist, um, and had gotten painkillers cuz of the, the dental work that he had done. He had drank alcohol and taken, um, painkillers. This is what I was told. I don't have a recollection of this. Um, I just remember that night waking up to my mother on the phone crying with my oldest sister, wrapped around her while she was talking to, uh, help, um, to get people to come. Um, he had, uh, taken his life with a rifle. Um, I think he lived for a few days because my mother had to go to the hospital. Um, I remember having to stay at the neighbors and, um, I didn't see her for a day or two. And he lived, I think so I, I don't know why else she wouldn't have come home.
Speaker 0 00:07:36 Right, right. That's traumatic and it's, ugh. Yeah, that's a lot for you. And so did you have siblings at home with you?
Speaker 4 00:07:44 Um, I have two older sisters. One that's four years older and one that's, uh, six years older. Um, my middle sister, luckily she, her bedroom was in the basement and so she didn't wake up, she didn't hear what had happened. I got woken up from the crying and the yelling. Um, and, and that's what, that's what woke me up.
Speaker 0 00:08:07 Do you have any memories from what maybe your brain thought was happening?
Speaker 4 00:08:12 Um, I remember them wheeling him out. They had him covered up. Um, I remember there being a lot of blood in the bedroom. Jesus Christ. Um, and friends. I mean, it wasn't like hazmat came in to clean all that up back in the seventies. Uh, I think I, if I recall correctly, family friends cleaned that up for my mom, like gave her a new bedding and cleaned everything up. So, cuz it was in the bedroom, it was in their, their their bedroom. I don't know where she was at at the time. Um, my memories aren't good where my stepdad was concerned. He and my mom fought all the time and he was pretty mean. He was not nice to me. Um, he was nicest to my middle sister. She was his favorite, I think. Um, the only fond memory I have is going camping. He, he taught us how to camp and that was really fun. But there was just so much arguing, so much tension and conflict. So it was almost a relief to me that he was gone because the fighting stopped. And, um, you know, the financially it was a huge hardship on us. We ended up having to sell the house and move. Um, but, and I, I don't think that we owned a house after that. We always rented. We just couldn't afford it. Mom being a single mom with three children, so. Right.
Speaker 0 00:09:42 So after that, how did your life change besides financially? Of course it sounds like the hardship was very noticeable, but as you grew, cuz your next loss isn't until the,
Speaker 4 00:09:54 I was 22 when I lost my mom in 93. Um, I don't know. I always say I was raised by wolves. My mother seemed to like, become lost or, um, she just, she just didn't have great parenting skills. I don't know how else to say it. We were, we had a lot of inappropriate exposures. Um, I had endured some, uh, sexual abuse as a child. Um, just not being protected, not being watched over. Um, yeah.
Speaker 0 00:10:36 Had to make your mom feelings very complicated.
Speaker 4 00:10:39 Definitely. She started dating a year or so after Earl had passed. Um, and that's what brought in so much inappropriateness. I don't know how else to say it. Um, cuz I don't know if I, I didn't clear that, that we were doing this podcast with my sisters and I don't wanna share things that would be uncomfortable for them. Yeah, I think that's great because it, it was their experience as well. Right.
Speaker 0 00:11:13 So yeah. And this is about yours. This is about yours.
Speaker 4 00:11:16 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:11:17 So you grew up, you were in your twenties. That's a hard time to lose. A mom is in your twenties.
Speaker 4 00:11:22 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:11:23 But it's also a time when you're becoming really independent mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, uh, can we talk about the day, the day before and the day of that you lost her, the things that you remember, the things that you remember experiencing,
Speaker 4 00:11:38 Um, the day of, or two weeks before, because the last time that I really talked to her was two weeks before when we had lunch together. Um, she had asked me to come to Guas Island. She and my stepfather Paul, uh, were building a house on Guas Island. And she wanted me to come over. It was a 4th of July weekend. I was working two or three jobs at the time. And, uh, I had to work that weekend. So I told her I I couldn't come. Uh, looking back, I believe that she knew what she was gonna do. Um, she had a plan and so it was her way of having that last time with me and to say goodbye. Um, I ultimately got off work early and I ended up going the opposite direction on Highway 20. My friend and I, who worked at the restaurant together, both got off early and we went to Concrete, uh, which is the opposite direction on Highway 20.
Speaker 4 00:12:41 And spent the night, uh, went camping with her boyfriend and his friends, um, instead of going to see my mom. Um, and then that next week on the Thursday that she had taken her life, um, I had a really strong sense that something was off and I tried to call her, I left her a voicemail to just tell her I was checking in and that I was thinking about her. And I loved her and for her to call me back. And, uh, I never heard from her. Um, I, uh, that following day, my sister, my middle sister had called me and asked if she could take me to lunch. So I was really excited, uh, that my sister wanted to come to take me to lunch and see me. Um, and that's when she told me that my mom was gone. Um, uh, my mom took her life by, uh, carbon monoxide poisoning. Um, putting a hose in the car. Um, uh, my stepdad had found her. Uh, she left. Um, she left a very simple one line note that just said that she gave up and that was it.
Speaker 0 00:14:01 That's very, that's a very, like, I, I would sit with that note for a while. Like,
Speaker 4 00:14:11 I still have the note. I, uh, I took it. You? Yeah. I, there's a lot of things I, I won't let go of. Um, I have her journals, I won't read them, but I still have them. And, uh, I have the note. Do you wanna talk about the library book? Oh. Um, feeds into my anger <laugh> in my grief, I got stuck in anger. Um, <affirmative>, she checked a book out of the library on how to commit suicide. Wow. And I refused to take the book back. Um, did you go and yell at them about it? No, I threatened to. Oh, okay. Um, but I just, just, I refused to, to take it back. Um, I had to, I came over to my stepdad's to try and help clean up, um, after the fact, which was a mistake cuz it just charged a lot of emotions. Um, he ended up getting upset with me and having me leave. So,
Speaker 0 00:15:15 Cause I, I mean, while I don't know the situation, I think it's really important to pause here and say, um, your anger is so valid. And I think getting stuck in your anger, like you said, or maybe you had a lot to get out. Sounds like it built up over the years.
Speaker 4 00:15:35 Um, I was always the closest to my mom up until my late teen years. There was a lot of tension between us. I had gotten kicked out. Uh, I didn't follow a rule or something. I came back, uh, mom was pretty old school in that when you were 18 and you graduated from school, you either could stay home, um, if you were gonna go to school or you needed to pay rent or you needed to move out. And so at 18, I,
Speaker 0 00:16:02 That was the Boomer manual. I, I had the same thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:16:07 So, um, so I ultimately moved out. I just remember being upset with her a lot in my early adult life, late teen years, just cuz of the forced distance she was trying to create. And maybe my own distance. I don't know, as you, as you leave the nest, um, I don't feel like I'm articulating this very well. Uh,
Speaker 0 00:16:35 When some tough love it sounds like.
Speaker 4 00:16:38 Yeah. Um, it just put a strain on us cuz she and I had always been so close. I was her baby. I was the youngest of three. And, um, I always felt like the favorite. My sister has always accused me of being the favorite. So, um, yeah.
Speaker 0 00:16:58 So first of all, I wanna talk about, I, I, maybe this is because I have a sibling too, but I feel like when your sibling called you to have lunch and you were so excited, you had no idea mm-hmm. <affirmative> that, cause for me, as I said, I would, like, if my sister called me and wanted to go have lunch, I'd be like, oh, my sister wants to have lunch with me. Like, I got that feeling from you when you said it. Oh
Speaker 4 00:17:21 Yeah. It, it meant something. Yeah. Well, my stepdad or my, well my stepdad, my, uh, my brother-in-law had come with her and the minute they got out of the car, I knew something was up. And she went to tell me. And my brother-in-law came in behind me because I was about to bolt <laugh>. I was about to run away. And he grabbed me, um, and kept me, me there. Uh, I had to go in and tell work what had happened. I called my dad to let him know. And, um, was the first one
Speaker 0 00:18:01 Hard conversation.
Speaker 4 00:18:02 Were you the one to tell grandpa? Yeah, I was the one to tell him. Um, I called him and told them that she was gone. And, um, it was one of the only times he showed emotion of love about her. Um, he was just always so hateful where my mom was concerned. Um, he said some pretty awful things about her in my life. And, uh, you know, for a brief moment he tried to come around and be there for us. But it was pretty short-lived. So
Speaker 0 00:18:39 That's, that's horrible news to have to tell anyone while you're in the midst of shock yourself.
Speaker 4 00:18:45 Right.
Speaker 0 00:18:47 I don't know if you've ever given that to yourself.
Speaker 4 00:18:53 What do you mean? Or
Speaker 0 00:18:54 The bearer of that? Just giving yourself space with that, those emo like that's a responsibility that no child, no matter your age, <laugh> should have. You're, you're in your own state of shock and grief, you know?
Speaker 4 00:19:10 Yeah. Um, I, I felt like I was doing it more to gain comfort from him because of the loss. I just, I, I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to do, gosh, for a long time after. And how to deal with all of the emotions and the loss and just the lack of understanding on how she could possibly leave us. You know, I was only 22. I still needed her. I wasn't done learning from her and growing. I, I've said that I felt like I was raised by wolves, but at the same time, she just gave me so much positivity. There's so much of my character that is because of her, my strength, my confidence. Um, I got all of that from her and how she lost the strength to keep pushing on. I know that she suffered from depression most of her adult life, but I didn't know it until after she was gone.
Speaker 4 00:20:21 And hearing stories that my dad would tell me about, um, certain scenarios with counseling and, um, the fact that I was the only planned child because she had had so much postpartum and some depression because of, uh, miscarriages, um, between my oldest sisters and my middle sister. And then, um, after my middle sister, there was another miscarriage. Uh, she was so depressed, the doctors had recommended that she have another child. And that's how I became <laugh>, you know? And unfortunately my dad had to take me home and she was left strapped to a hospital bed because, uh, she was in such deep throws of postpartum, she couldn't leave the hospital.
Speaker 0 00:21:12 Wow. And in the seventies they did not have any help for postpartum. No. For that kind of depression. It was just not, it was not a thing. And now we know how dangerous it can be, but mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and I've got a lot of, um, faces in the project that have connections to suicide because of postpartum depression. So it's such a major thing now. But yeah, in the seventies we were just lucky to, you know, have anybody listen to mental health back then. Um, so you were in your, you kind of were spiraling in your twenties it sounds like, which I resonate with so hard. <laugh>, I definitely spiraled in my twenties here in Seattle. I feel like, um, having to have your own twenties, but also process such a mature, serious loss. Um, we're lucky that you're here today, honestly. So you, not too short, I don't know how old you were when you had Maggie. So that, where is that in the timeline after this?
Speaker 4 00:22:18 Um, I had Maggie at 25, so three years later, um, my mother passed away a month before my 23rd birthday. So, and I have Maggie and March of 96, so 25.
Speaker 0 00:22:34 So my savior that to Right. That's what I was gonna say, like, in a way, um, anyone that has either a loss of a mother, mother issues, like I have a loss of a mother, she's still alive, but I've already grieved her. We don't speak anybody that has that that has a child. Um, there's a, there's a rebirth in there, right?
Speaker 4 00:22:53 Oh, definitely. Uh, absolutely. You nailed it. Um, it changed my whole perspective, my whole life perspective. I was living for her and it just brought so much joy and newness and rebirth, getting to experience things fresh. It was, it was transformative. I'm so grateful for her <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:23:20 Well, and when you have a parent that is kind of absent or neglectful in many ways, like you said your mom wasn't, you guys were exposed to things that were hard. Like it was a lot. This is your turn. Like I, I don't know about you, but when you have boomer parents and you grow up to be a parent, there's a part of you that's just like, I'm gonna do this so different
Speaker 4 00:23:41 <laugh> I am
Speaker 0 00:23:43 Ready.
Speaker 4 00:23:44 Percent.
Speaker 0 00:23:47 So that's very affirming.
Speaker 4 00:23:49 She may accuse me of being a helicopter parent, but, you know, it was the complete opposite of what I had. So,
Speaker 0 00:23:57 Yeah. So let's fast forward. Um, I want take a little breath here because that was a lot to share. Um, thank you for trusting us with that because I think even though there are 20, you know, 30 years behind you, it's people often say like, oh, I didn't know that emotion was gonna come up or I didn't feel, and there's just still things that lodge in our bodies that we think, oh, it's been so long. But I, people tell me all the time, oh, it was so long ago with your brother, but it doesn't matter. Something will come up and I'm just like, triggered tears all over again. It's just how it works.
Speaker 4 00:24:33 Yeah. It's been interesting, this process, uh, meeting with you and preparing. Um, it definitely has brought it all back front and center again. Um, more so than experienced in a while.
Speaker 0 00:24:47 Isn't it nice when it comes up and you feel not ready? Cuz we're never ready, but when you feel like maybe, oh, I've done some work since the last time I've really cried about this and this feels manageable. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> feels like something I can survive. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think in the beginning the tears are very, I call them lava tears. Sometimes they feel uncontrollable, they feel scary, they burn. Yeah. Um, shame, lots of fear in them. But as you, as you move and you'll learn this Maggie, as you get farther through your grief that it doesn't get easier. You just get stronger. Yes. You just manage it better.
Speaker 4 00:25:28 It does get easier though. I mean, um, I I I'm a different person now. I, I am stronger and um, you know, I don't reach to pick up the phone anymore to call her. Whereas I did in the first few years. That was really hard to get over. Um, not being able to reach out to her, especially in the big life events like having Maggie, you know, she should have been here. Um, she should have been a part of that, uh, to help raise my oldest sister's daughter to meet my middle sister's daughter. Each three girls had a girl <laugh>, by the way. <laugh>. Oh
Speaker 0 00:26:11 Wow.
Speaker 4 00:26:12 So,
Speaker 0 00:26:14 Yeah. It's a lot. It's a lot. So at what point, um, does our next loss happen in your story?
Speaker 3 00:26:23 Um, so my dad died in 2017.
Speaker 0 00:26:29 I need you to speak a little louder for me, Maggie.
Speaker 3 00:26:31 Oh, sorry, my
Speaker 0 00:26:32 Dad. No,
Speaker 3 00:26:32 You're good. Uh, in 2017, I was 21. So I was just a year younger than when my mom lost her mom. Um, do you want me to,
Speaker 0 00:26:44 And so to be, to be clear, just to answer any questions in the audience, mom and dad are no longer together.
Speaker 3 00:26:51 Yes, correct.
Speaker 0 00:26:52 Tracy and, and your dad. Um, so you're estranged kind of,
Speaker 3 00:26:57 Um, kind of. So my parents are together up until I was like one. Um, and then my whole life, basically I say I have three parents. So I have my mom and my dad, and then, um, my brother's mom. So my dad's wife, my stepmom, um, and the three of them raised me altogether. Um, I just lost my train of thought.
Speaker 0 00:27:28 <laugh>. Well, it's okay. I can help. Um, so you were 21, had you turned 21 already and celebrated the 21?
Speaker 3 00:27:35 Yeah. Okay. Yes. Yeah. Yes, because you're, you
Speaker 4 00:27:39 Turned 21 in March and he died August 3rd.
Speaker 3 00:27:42 Yeah, I was, I get confused because I hadn't talked to him that whole year leading up to his death. So some things I'm like, was he alive and I just wasn't talking to him or had he already passed? Yeah, they had a fight
Speaker 4 00:27:58 In New Year's Eve and um, and then they stopped
Speaker 3 00:28:02 Talking. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:28:05 So that has to be, that's a, that's hard because you guys hadn't talked and you had had a fight and those were your last words. So walk me through finding out about this and how this all went down.
Speaker 3 00:28:21 Okay. Um, I guess a little bit of backstory. So he had started dating this woman and it moved pretty quick and within a few weeks they were engaged. Um, so a couple years before that, him and my stepmom had separated, but they weren't yet divorced. Um, so it was very weird behavior. Um, my brothers and I were all weirded out about it. Um, and then they moved in together pretty quick. That New Year's 2017 we got in a fight and I moved into my stepmom's house cause the plan was to live with them. Um, and then, yeah, we got in a fight and I hadn't really talked to him all year and cuz of his relationship, like he was a little bit estranged from my brothers too. Like none of us had really talked to him. So then, um, August 3rd, I like went to work.
Speaker 3 00:29:30 Uh, I went out with my friends, my coworkers after we went swimming. And then I was coming home and I was like, rounding the corner on our street almost there. Um, and my aunt called me. I was like, are you almost home? I was like, yeah, I'm, I'm almost there. And like could tell in her voice that something was wrong. Um, so pulled in, jumped out of the car, ran inside really quick. Um, she was in the kitchen and didn't even, I don't think she said anything, but she just like pointed me to go down the hall. So I went into my stepmom's room, um, and my brothers were sitting on her bed and like, everybody's face was just so like in shock and sad. Like the room was just so heavy. And I guess she had just told my brothers like seconds before I walked in.
Speaker 3 00:30:28 And so I kind of, I feel bad like they had to hear it a second time. But the only thing I could think of was like, oh, maybe grandma died. Cuz you know, she was older and didn't really take care of herself. So I asked, I was like, did not die. And my son just goes, no, dad killed himself. And I like, mom tried to run away <laugh> and I really collapsed. Yeah, I tried to run. Um, and I collapsed in the kitchen and just sobbed. And like one of the first things I said, my aunt was still there and she was the one that comforted me right after finding out. Um, and I just kept repeating. I never got to fix it with him.
Speaker 3 00:31:17 That was really hard the rest of the day. I feel like it's just kind of blurred. Being in shock is so weird. I remember like in the middle of being in shock, being like, I feel insane right now. And it's like felt like being in and out of consciousness, trying to like be aware of what's going on. Um, so after finding out, gathered myself a little bit and tried to call mom. Um, but in the summers before the pandemic, she would ride a motorcycle into work and so of course can't answer the phone when she's riding. Yeah. And it was right when she was commuting home and I tried to call her a couple times and she didn't answer. I think I knew why. I can't remember exactly if I was like registered, okay, it's this time. So she riding home. I couldn't do anything until I talked to her. I called her my aunt, so her middle sister and told her and she was like going off. She was like, that bastard, I can't believe you did that. I can't believe you have to go through this now too. Like, she was very angry. That was her immediate reaction. And then I think she got ahold of you first and then somewhere along the line you just showed up and you were there.
Speaker 3 00:32:50 Um,
Speaker 4 00:32:51 I don't remember who told me. Um, I remember when it was told to me, I just collapsed. Um, knowing what she was gonna have to go through and, you know, as a mom trying to help mama bear,
Speaker 3 00:33:09 Oh God,
Speaker 4 00:33:11 I wasn't angry at him. I just, I, my heart broke because I knew that she hadn't resolved things and um, that she would have to live with this. This was going to be her story now too. So, uh, I collected myself, hopped in my truck and um, went over immediately to her stepmom's house. Um, I think it's the only time that her stepmom and I actually hugged <laugh>. I just, we didn't talk, we didn't say anything. I just grabbed her.
Speaker 0 00:33:46 When you saw Maggie for the first time that door opened, just, do you remember,
Speaker 4 00:33:54 Was it outside? I don't remember. I don't remember. That part is just a blur. It was just so
Speaker 0 00:33:59 There's something about the first embraces with people, um, after someone takes their life, the people that also loved them the much, as much as you did or in those spaces, if that makes sense. Um, I find that those are the embraces that I remember the most. Those are the interactions. Even if they were weird that I remember the most,
Speaker 4 00:34:20 The interaction with her stepmom is I think what stands out to me because she and I have never gotten along. We didn't agree on anything including raise how to raise Maggie. Um, but just that shared experience bringing us together, it changed everything. Yeah. It changed the dynamic between she and I. It changed my relationship with Maggie cuz Maggie and I weren't really getting along that well at the time too. That's why when she got in the fight with her dad, she moved in with her stepmom. She didn't move in with me. Um, cuz there was just so much tension and because of this shared experience, it drastically changed, uh, the direction of our relationship. It brought us, um, together very strongly. And it's remained since then. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:35:24 <affirmative>. Wow. That's intense. The whole story with all of the, the different roles that so many people play had to make that grief really layered. You know what I mean? With all of the different people. Um, stripping it all down for a minute. I want, cuz I'm a mama bear. I want to take note of the fact that y your mom sprung to tears stronger and faster in hearing about you and the, uh, what you've missed out with your dad. And, and knowing that that was the last time you talked. And I think that that's so testament to two things to the mama bear, but also to the fact that she literally knows firsthand what you're going through, which is so rare in our circles. Um, it's so rare. Most of the time people experience it together because it's the same loss, which is true. But your mom had two be ahead of you. So there is something very tragic but also very beautiful in that. And I wanted you two to know that because it's very hard to find somebody that can look at you and go, oh my God, I know this heartbreak. I know it. Um, Maggie, 21 is hard. I don't know how old you are. So you're 26 now. Um, how did that change for you after? Was there a funeral? How did that go? Do you remember much of it?
Speaker 3 00:37:04 Yeah. Um, we had a memorial. I don't know, it's the same thing that mom said. Like, sure, I was technically an adult, but I still needed my dad. I still need him 26. I still need him. I wish he was here. Um, I don't know. That was just, I, it was never my plan. I knew I would speak to him again. I, I had a plan to fix our relationship. Maybe not like written down or like, okay, we'll talk at this time, but I was never not gonna talk to him again. Right. Um, so yeah, we had a memorial. Um, I was actually just talking to my stepmom about this, but we didn't know what to do. I mean, when it's sudden like this and he didn't have everything written down. So we were at the funeral home coroner's office, wherever his body was, I'm not sure. Um, and it was my older brother, my stepmom and I, we had to decide what we were gonna do with his body and we just, the three of us, we looked at each other and I was like, well, one time I think he mentioned he wanted to be cremated and we're like, okay, I guess that's what we're doing. <laugh>. Oh. So yeah, he was cremated. Um, I feel like his memorial was in September, so maybe it was like almost a month. I feel like I remember it starting to turn into fall. I, um,
Speaker 4 00:38:53 I don't
Speaker 3 00:38:54 Recall. I don't, I remember going there, we went early before everybody showed up, obviously. And I just kept saying like, I don't want to be here. I shouldn't have to be here,
Speaker 4 00:39:05 Can
Speaker 0 00:39:06 You? So you didn't want to be at the funeral? No. And I would love to hear more about that cuz funerals are very, uh, topical in these discussions. Cuz some people find them healing, some people do not. They're really not for the person themselves. They're for the rest of us.
Speaker 3 00:39:24 Yeah. Um, I just, I didn't wanna be there. I was uncomfortable. My chest hurt. You know, when you're like about to cry and you get that ball in your throat. I had that I think all day. Um, just 21. I shouldn't have to be here right now. He should still be here. Um, I remember the pants that I was wearing. Like this was not my style at all, that I just like grabbed some dress pants from Target so I could like look nice in his memorial. And the stupid pockets were sewn shut. So I went into the kitchen at the church and like grabbed a knife and ripped the pockets open just to like be able to stick my hands in my pockets and like, you know, some basic comfort things. Um, the actual service, I don't remember that much. Um, I'd made a video, like just a slideshow with music. Um, a bunch of pictures and that was so difficult to make. The only way I got through that was just having friends over and that like having what we could make like a cheerful time. And then it was almost like in the background, I made this video so that I just could turn the feelings off and get it done. Um,
Speaker 4 00:40:51 That was my favorite part of the memorial was the slideshow. Um, it was a really good representation of his life and the people in it. And, um, I thought you did such a phenomenal job. Thanks. Yeah. I didn't realize, I know that you struggled a bit with it, but I didn't realize to the extent. Um, but it was so well done. Thank you. Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:41:12 I, well I feel like whenever I talk about him, I always feel the need to save this. That he was a dad, he was there. Um, he would take me out on dates and he was so present and I feel very fortunate. I wish I had him for longer, but I'm glad that I had him for the time time that I did and that he was such a present and loving dad. He wasn't just like half of our dna. Yeah,
Speaker 4 00:41:42 Yeah. He was definitely a participant. I relied on him heavily. He and I did not get along, but where it came to her, he always put her first. He loved her so much. He loved her so much. They had this little thing that was really cute. Um, if she was feeling sad leaving my house because he spent 40%, she spent 40, they spent 40% of the time with their dad and 60% of their time with me. And if she was, if they were feeling blue or sad, he would take her for, uh, dairy Queen ice cream. That was their thing.
Speaker 3 00:42:21 We'd always get a blizzard. Yeah. Whenever something bad happened or just a hard day or I just really didn't wanna leave mom's that Sunday. Yeah. So there's a few times in my childhood we got ice cream for dinner.
Speaker 4 00:42:32 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:42:34 So I, I still do that. Like, whenever I'm like really sad thinking about him, I'm like, let me go get a blizzard. Blizzard,
Speaker 0 00:42:42 Blizzard. Yep. I love that story. And I love that you make that note about him being a dad because I think you have to hold on to that. You have to hold on. You know, that's all we have now are memories of these loved ones. And you know, I was talking about, um, my brother the other day and I was talking about how the last thing he wanted was to be immortalized as some saint. And I think that it's really important for us to do both things, to be honest with who our loved ones were, um, after their death. But also, you know, it's, it behooves us to remember the things that we loved mm-hmm. <affirmative> because that's, that's part of our journey. You know, I think your mom spoke so much on anger earlier and I think there, and you were talking about angry, being angry, you know, my dad should be here. Yeah. And I think that those are things, those are, those are the angers that we gotta process that we gotta get out that are always gonna be there. But also just remembering the love and having, being able to do both I think is very mature of somebody of your age, Maggie. And I think that you're already able to have some perspective of his life.
Speaker 0 00:44:00 It's big. Not everybody can do that. Sometimes it takes years, sometimes people never get there.
Speaker 3 00:44:04 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 4 00:44:06 Yeah. I, I feel like in processing my loss, I didn't handle it very well. I didn't handle it very healthy. But being able to support her and watch how she has endured this grief, I couldn't be more proud of the maturity and that she, she was really proactive. They were very proactive in seeking counseling and taking care of themselves. Uh, I I was just so proud. So absolutely proud. Um, I wish that I had the wherewithal back then to be more proactive in healing.
Speaker 3 00:44:47 But you weren't raised that way. You guys put me in therapy in middle school and that's why I have that skill. That's why I rely on that. You didn't have that? No. So you
Speaker 0 00:45:01 No, we didn't have those
Speaker 3 00:45:02 Tools. Part of the reason. Yeah. You are part of the reason why I handled it. What you feel better than you did. So give yourself some
Speaker 0 00:45:12 Credit. It's breaking a generational curse is what that is, Tracy. Yeah, for sure. The not needing therapy. I mean, our whole generation, if you asked to go to therapy in the eighties, we would've just been locked up somewhere. It wasn't, it was unheard of. Right. It was totally unheard of. So the fact that you've gone through all of this helped your daughter through it. And then when she was of that prime age that she was really impressionable putting her in therapy. That's a very, very unheard of at that time. So you, you learned from your grief and helped her. And I think that's, I think you guys are a great example of how grief can make us stronger because I'm sure you've heard stories when when Major fa ma family members are lost tragically like that it can go either way. You can either get closer to your family members or it can alienate them.
Speaker 3 00:46:04 Yeah. Well, oh, I missed a big part of my story. Hmm. The East coast Higgins.
Speaker 4 00:46:11 Oh
Speaker 3 00:46:12 Yeah. So speaking of alienating, um, so my dad and my stepmom are from Buffalo and they moved over here together and then slowly my stepmom's family kind of trickled over and followed her. But my dad's family stayed in Buffalo. So at the time of his death, my grandma was still living. And then it was my uncle and my cousins. Um, and I don't remember how this started, but actually while we were at the church, um, so my little brother for a lot of this stuff, he was 15 at the time. Um, so he wasn't part of the planning. Um, my older brother and I were 11 months apart. Um, we were adults and through that process I felt like I kind of mama beared my little brother a bit. Um, sure. It was a child. Both
Speaker 4 00:47:12 You and Liam did.
Speaker 3 00:47:13 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:47:14 They really protected. They really protected him.
Speaker 3 00:47:17 Um, but so my older brother, my stepmom and I, we were at the church planning our dad's memorial and our uncle called me. So my dad's brother and my brother and I stepped out and he was just screaming at us saying that it was our fault that our dad completed suicide and specifically named me and my little brother. And like my thing about it was like, I'm an adult, I can take it whatever punches you wanna throw at me, fine. But my fucking 15 year old brother, absolutely not. You do not say that it was his fault and drag him into this, it's none of our faults, but especially to say him, he's a fucking child. And I just went off and, and I mean I'm queer so I'm already going to hell, but especially going to hell cuz I was just swearing up a storm at church like, how fucking dare you?
Speaker 0 00:48:21 This is me slow clapping for you <laugh>, you just hit, you just hit all my life goals in one sentence. Like Yeah, listen, that's first of all how what a horribly sad broken person Yep. To have to do that. And, and and a very typical example of someone who has not been taught how to process their emotions.
Speaker 3 00:48:44 Oh yeah. Yeah. So I'm
Speaker 0 00:48:47 Sorry that happened to you both.
Speaker 3 00:48:49 Thank you. Um, that whole side of the family, so we're called, they call us the Seattle Higgins and they're the East Coast Higgins. And you know, we're the healthy trying to thrive ones and my uncle is probably a closeted gay man and doesn't know how to deal with this feelings.
Speaker 0 00:49:10 <laugh>. We should have a whole separate episode on that shit.
Speaker 3 00:49:17 Um, yeah, like the, even my grandma was a part of that saying that it was our fault and my brother tried to reach out to our cousins. So our uncle's children, um, and their mom who we had only met a couple times because her and my uncle divorced a long time ago, like when we were kids or maybe even before we were born. Um, she's such an idiot. She came in and like was found my brother and I on Facebook and was messaging us these insane illiterate things. Like it became a running joke at my work because she didn't make any sense. You'd have to read her messages a couple times to try to make sense of what she was saying and was like, don't ever talk to my sons again. Blah blah, blah. They're years older than us, they are very much adults. It was, the whole thing was insane and we don't talk to them.
Speaker 3 00:50:20 My grandma died. Um, I only found out because my aunt who was kind of outside of that whole thing, um, I have a bit of a relationship with her and so she shared that grandma died and of course we didn't go, um, yeah, we don't talk to them. We were also not invited to, um, the church service that they had for him over there in Buffalo. Which makes me sad. That was where he was from. I think that would've been important to him and we couldn't go and it was our dad. Like the whole thing was just so fucked up.
Speaker 0 00:51:01 Suicide is a very, can be very damaging to families, especially if you don't have your own space to work on your shit or wherewithal to work on it either way. Um, it's, it sounds like a lot of layers to process.
Speaker 3 00:51:18 Yeah, it
Speaker 4 00:51:19 Did open the opportunity to strengthen the relationship with Patrick's oldest sister, however, the one that lives in and her son. Well
Speaker 3 00:51:29 Don't triangulate everybody. <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:51:33 It is nice though. It's nice because I think when something like this happens, you have two things. You have people drop off cuz they don't know how to handle it. And then you have people go actually like, I want to connect with you on this pain because I'm feeling it. And I think that it's, it's human nature to connect at our moments that we want people to celebrate with us and also at our sadness. Like we just, we need human connection. It's science. Um, but in these situations it's like hard to know what part you need and want versus, you know, just people being assholes or people being needy or whatever. So I, I'm glad that you stuck up for your little brother and I'm glad that you had that fire and a fire in you to set somebody straight because I think that's straight. That's funny. <laugh>. Um, but you know, I think, uh, I think that's a lot. So, you know, you processed this at a very young age and you know, so did Tracy. Now looking out into the world, you know, you had enough confidence to around the topic of suicide in general cuz a lot of people can barely even I get people whispering it to me still strangers. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:52:41 Thing that
Speaker 0 00:52:42 Do that thing, that topic. I mean they just can't say it. It's amazing to me. So what have you done? What kind of processing have you done? Where are you now around the topic and around your loss? Because I was very proud of both of you to be able to have that conversation with me that day in public not knowing me. Um, what, what advice do you have up for other people? Because a lot of people that listen to this are either grieving, currently grieving or maybe people that are not sure they wanna be here anymore. Um, and they take it day by day, which I think there's a lot of people that do that right now in our climate. Um, I would love to know, um, where you are now and the processing you've gone through and any advice you might have for people, people processing this.
Speaker 3 00:53:27 Um, I was actually very lucky and I found you maybe within the first year of his suicide. Really? Yeah. Um, so I think you were just doing portraits then. Um, that was really helpful. Um, I was lucky also the place that I worked at at the time, I was able to do a fundraiser, um, for the month of September for suicide awareness month. Um, and we raised quite a bit of money. Um, so that was the September after. So it was a year after his death. Um Right. Wasn't it? Yeah. There's no way I could have done that a month after
Speaker 4 00:54:11 His death. No, there's no
Speaker 3 00:54:13 Way. Yeah. So it was a year after now is really healing. I got into a lot of those things. Not as much now and maybe just because I don't need that as much anymore. Um, yeah. Um, I guess like I had said in the email, the best advice I got while grieving was to not take advice on how to grieve.
Speaker 0 00:54:40 I loved that by the way. I loved that.
Speaker 3 00:54:43 That really stuck with me. Um, and I, I took that because people will say so many things and it was, as much as it was helpful for people to reach out, it was also so overwhelming. I turned my phone off several times. I, there was one time I went to work and I left my phone at home cuz it, it's too much. Um, at times, like I don't wanna discourage people from reaching out if they have a person that has experienced loss. Um Right. Because you also want to be surrounded by love. But yeah, just figuring out how I needed to grieve, um, and creating a space for myself with that, that was helpful. Hmm. <laugh> <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:55:39 And what about you Tracy?
Speaker 4 00:55:44 Uh, 30 years ago there weren't a lot of resources. Yeah. Um, I had to try and just figure it out. I lived in my anger for a long time. Um, each of my sisters had a different experience. We all kind of went our own way. It didn't draw us closer. It caused us distance for a number of years. Um, we obviously came back together, uh, after a few years. Um, and we're still very close. We all live in Washington together. I couldn't imagine not having them. Yeah. Um, uh, giving yourself the space to grieve the way that you need to grieve mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, there's no time limit. There's so many emotions that come up around grief and you know, if you know somebody that is struggling, um, reaching out, being present, allowing them to set the tone of what they need, however, yeah. But being patient and being patient with them in how, letting them set the tone. Um, but for your own grief, there's so many great resources now. Um, use the resources, get into counseling, talk about it. You don't have to stuff your feelings, but,
Speaker 3 00:57:11 And give yourself grace for when asking for help is really hard because as much as like those resources are available, like it is really hard to reach out. I mean, oh yeah. I just went through a really tough depressive episode for several months. Um, it got to the point where I was taking it day by day. Um, and I had to get back on my antidepressants for my safety cuz I was scared for where it was going. Um, and that was a, that was hard. It felt like I was giving up. Um, but I just kind of remind myself every time I feel like that, that I, I compare it to, um, like a chronic illness or somebody with diabetes. They need those medications to live and to survive. And I need antidepressants to survive and that's totally okay.
Speaker 0 00:58:19 It's more than okay. It's what allows us to be sitting here right now in very possible way. Like, I'm glad you're still here.
Speaker 3 00:58:29 Thank
Speaker 0 00:58:30 You. I'm glad that you had the maturity to know that you needed to take your meds and that that helps you survive. I think that, again, I'm gonna keep saying this like you are an old soul in many ways because man, there are grown people over the age of, you know, 40 fifties that still have not made that realization. Yeah. So
Speaker 3 00:58:55 One, like something that helps me that I feel like can come across is like a little bit toxic, but, um, because our dad took his life, I feel like we no longer, that's no longer an option for us. So like, for me and the way that my brain works, wording things in those ways, like, I have to do this. You know, maybe I don't have to, but I, I have to live because leaving isn't an option anymore. He took that. Um, and I know what that leaves behind and how damaging it is for the living. Um,
Speaker 4 00:59:40 Yeah. We cannot pass that legacy on. Yeah. This, this legacy stops here. I have a pack with my sisters. Maggie made a pack with her brothers. She made a pack with me.
Speaker 3 00:59:50 Hmm. I didn't make a pack with them. With them.
Speaker 4 00:59:52 You made it with
Speaker 3 00:59:53 Me. Oh yeah.
Speaker 4 00:59:55 <laugh>. But yeah, the legacy stops here. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:59:59 That is, that's powerful. That's powerful. Good for you all for having those conversations and saying, Hey, this sucked, this was fucked up and we don't want to feel this again. Yeah. So what can we do with all of us to make sure that that never happens again? That's powerful. Can you imagine if we all start having those conversations, what kind of healing would happen?
Speaker 3 01:00:22 Yeah,
Speaker 4 01:00:22 For sure.
Speaker 3 01:00:23 Yeah.
Speaker 0 01:00:25 You too. I'm just so grateful for your time today for both of you having the, the safety to feel that you could be vulnerable with me. I feel very honored by that. Um, yeah. I'm excited to do your photos now, even more to do some mother-daughter photos and to talk even in more detail and share a little bit more of my story and my loss with you. And that usually happens in photos, but for now, I just wanna thank you for sharing all of this and for being willing to share your story with people that might need to hear it to change their situation.
Speaker 3 01:01:00 Yeah. Thank you for creating a safe space for
Speaker 4 01:01:03 This. Yeah. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 01:01:05 To be so approachable for somebody who's very introverted and shy, you were very approachable and in that moment of meeting you on the pi, like it was just so easy to be like, Ugh, this is everything that happens. <laugh>, it was great. I just vomit my emotions on you a little bit.
Speaker 0 01:01:26 I I am so grateful that you did, so grateful that you did.
Speaker 1 01:01:35 Thank you so much for listening and holding space for the stories and heart spaces shared in this episode. I encourage you to visit the social media pages and websites of our guests as well as support their projects and endeavors that have sprouted from their pain. If you would like to apply to be a face in this project or are struggling and need help, please visit our website at faces of fortitude dot a RT for information on how to apply and visit the educate page on my website for a thorough list of support options. And until next time, please remember, this world is such a difficult place to live in right now for so many people. We never know what someone is going through. I hope you'll find a way to be softer with each other and yourself and harder on the systems that are trying to silence, hurt and erase us. Take care out there and stay safe.
